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Root Causes
Root Causes

Season 1, Episode 9 · 1 year ago

Episode 9: Abolition is Gun Violence Prevention

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Abolition, gun violence, and how we can bring about the collective liberation of all peoples. Both Elijah Nichols and Addison Moore strip back their guards and make it clear that the fight to end state violence is a cause that the gun violence prevention movement must boldly take on-- despite pushback.

Hello and welcome the episode nine ofroute causes and not my generation Plod CAS the podcast, the hopes to bring anational discussion on the differing intersections of the fightandgunobalance. This is your host, elijanicals and Addison more from DC.Welcome to rue causes. Today we will be discussing prison andpolice avolition in the fight and gun violence with myeat e iimedia, when the m wereliterally having an episode to talk about prison, police avolition- and Isaid myself well, I I know I, how dare I, how dare I not believe I thought wewere going to be like a little introduction like Mycelf, give the people what they want, givethe people if they want you are hearing it correctly. This isan episode between Addison and myself. We view that this is a conversationthat should have been in spaces a long time ago, Wi h specifically ingunmounts frorvencian spaces. So we wanted to have this conversationbetween to not my generation organizers, two people whove engaged in thisdiscussion, many many many times over. So yes welcome Adison to your weeklyroutine, oh my gosh. I know it's good to alwaysbe here likeais, you said we kindo wanted to talk about, you know, tvpwork and how police and prison abolition Kondo is a part of that andincluded in that process 'cause. What was it December in late, twenty nineteen rightat the beginning of me, Um starting on the board? I remember me and youtalking about wanting to have conversations around differentmovements and kind of like how they inpact a gun, violence, and we thoughtAweben hourr was going to be like a fantastic way to do that we were like.Oh, my gosh. This is going to be great, so easy, peasy is going to be great,people are going to learn so much and our first conversation we wanted totackle was police in prison avolition, which is honestly the reason why routecauses started, because we realized that you know there was a need to havethese conversations about different movements. So it's kind of surreal tosee kinofthe the topic that started this whole thing: I'm no life and really us have a chance to have thoseconversations. We can a have it together with our listeners absolutelyand to think about how far we've sort of commised individuals as organizers Imean- we've been doing internal trainings since February on police inprison abolition, because we knew it was something that we have to educateourselves on. First, like in a very indepthfull way before we sort of talkabout it in a very public way, because often we see people especiallyactivists, whois theactive, as sewout like words or knowledge when they don'tinternalize that struggle. You know I'm glad to be in space with you to sort ofhave this needed discussion in the gunmolns pomention it tat yeah. I thinkthis is going to be really great conversation, and you know it'sexciting for it to be the O g host Yooan a so. I guess we should sort ofbreak it down for people. So from our experience doing this work and GB Ppaces in getting involved in a space with e police and prison avolitionAddison. What do you view police in prison? ABOLITION TO BE UM? Really? Forme, I think it's! It's not necessarily just ending police in prisons, butreally finding solutions and systems. They really. You know care about thewell being of people and kind of the rehabilitation 'cause. I think the idea,as I know it and as I understand it, is really about punishment and then reform,but reform doesn't necessarily look like integrating a person back intosociety. Reform means to get them to understand to just follow the law,which is two very different things, and so it really is just reimagining thesesystems in a way that promote someone...

...who may or may not have committed acrime book to be able to be put back in society, because I think it's importantto understand that when we're thinking of abolition, it's not just aboutgetting rid of but reimagining and creating systems that truly care aboutthe individuals that it's supposed to be serving absolutel. I think it'scrucial to not even focus on the individual, but focus how one a personis forced into prison because the broke a supposed law. I think it comes downto when we're talking about police in prison. Abolition, it's really about tackling for lack ofitterterm. Those rute causes would lead individuals to commit certain crimes,and I hate even using that term, because why does crime have such thatheavy handed meaning to it when the state gets to define it? When we knowThi State itself, the United States of America is rooted in the subjugation ofso many different people, specifically black and Brownd individuals ofindigenous geoples, of Queer identity to ogender identity, something that Ilearned when I did a lot of research on this. When I was, I was trying tointernalize what all of this meant to break down really what the police statehas has brought to me, how it has affected individuals and how it aaffected our communities. I sort of realized that, when we're talking about police andprison abolition, it is about breaking down the divides between individuals,breaking down a hiearchy understanding that every single person is a human.They have the same capacity. They have that same worth that every otherindividual has. We are collective and to care for one another everything wedo impacts another and when we put someone else in prison because theycommitted a supposed crime when they committed an act against the state.Rather, we need to ask why they did it and we need to internalize thatstruggle, because if there is someone in prison when there's someone inprison that is harmed by the state and I think as gons prevention organizers,we really need to understand this deeply. So I'm grateful again to behaving this conversation with you, because there's so many layers, we haveto feel back 'cause, like you said it's about harming that individual, but wecan't separate that individual from the collective because we all interact withone another. We are in community with one another constantly, but prisons andpolice they break down at that they breag down at our humidity brea down atthe collective they hit one another against each other. They create ahierarchy of the good doers in the wrong dees and as plice ine prisonabolitionists, like we don't agree with that whatsoever, and I think that whenwe're talking about abolition, especially, it can be really important tounderstand that it's hard to try and kind of fix a system. That's SBILL, tobe broken, especially if you think of police in America, like their purpose,has been and always will be property 'cause. If you think about how thepolice are even rooted, it's they were created in response to catching slaves.Essentially, and when you have a system like that that that's how it began, howcan you expect it to do any good when the goal as to harm individuals that itstill does to this day and Iersponse, to not being able to continue to havethat free Labor to find another way to put those blackbodies to work without ayou know being deemed as slavery, but essentially we just produce anothermodern dayslavery, which is home. Ou, know, prisons, work. Now what you justsaid right, there, I think, is crucial for listeners for people in thegunmant's prevention movement to understand is that the commodificationof black lives is the roots of police in prison evolition because, as youmentioned, the Reforms Day, all the way back to to slavery, you know, like yousaid, like Angela Davis Sumedid up pretty greatly. I watched m speech byher many many months ago, where she said the reforms of slavery. When thatwas deemed unacceptable. It was prisons. It was police, it was thecommodification of livelihood, still black liveloohoods, like movement ofindigenous movement, really on thes,...

...suctioning off of territory and, likeyou said property, so I think that contaxt is super supercrucial yeah andespecially when wew're thinking about these systems are built. It's reallyhard, H, there'r, so many great actives that you can, like quote when you thinka police, inprison evolution, Um. I'm thinking of I think it's Odra Lord, who say likeyou, can't dismantle the oppressors house like with its own tools, or thatis really bad. I said it realytherly, but I see that cold all the time and Ithink it's really important to think about, especially in the contexts ofabolition work, because you can't reform f the police. You can't reformprisons because they were never meat to be reformed. They were bent to harm andhurt the same bodies that they've been doing for forgets entire existence, andso for me, when I think of doing abolitionist work, I think peopleassume that there's no. What next but there's always a one next on this kindof the goal of abolition, is to get to that. What next and when, when I thinkabout what next and my abolitionists work, it's really thinking. Okay, wedon't have prisons of police anymore. So what does that mean? Because I thinkalso there was a large structural came a tay crack, like it's broken wide openlike torn to pieces, kind of way that we are caring for or citizens andcaring for people in our communities. It as never been necessarily about thecare of our community members, but it's really been to cerpatuate systems thatyou know continue to enwoe Um and have like just historically damage black andBrown rodies. Taking these people away from homes, taking way the right tovote like thinking of the ways that you know prison and how police kind ofinteract with communities, it's never really to be there to support it'salways to be there harm. Why would I want to fix that like? Why do I want totry and fix that system? And why not, instead think of a system that willactually benefit the community and benefit the people who commit crimes?'cause. Even then, again, like you said earlier, you have to think about the Li'cause crime. Isn't the issue for me, because I think that there's always achance to rehabilitate someone right, BS and that's from crimes like robberyto murder. I saw quote recently, but I think it's important to know is thatyou know people can cause harm. Griat, like all of us in some sore way, couldhave and may have harmed someone, and that doesn't automatically make us badpeople, and I think that, when a bad deed is able to strip away yourhumanity, it's a really hard concept to understand. But having that kind oflike radical love is not easy, especially in the world that was neverbuilt to kind of show that type of Lobso absolutely. For me, I thinkabolition when thinking of how it differs from reform is really takingthis definition of love and applying itto the community. I figure out whatdoes it mean when I'm loving a community member? What does it meanwhen I am in community with someone in harm ISS done 'cause? I think it can bereally challenging to think of that 'cause. It's like will someone hurt mewhy do hi not deserve to also be hurt, but when you have a world that's builtlike that, it can be really challenging to get to a point where people can healtoo 'cause. If you just think about the ways an which crime has happened orlike the response to a crimg happening in the way or justice system servespeople, some folks who need you know justic, which is Wel, apparently oursystem gives people. We know it doesn't Um, but it's showntime and time again H. Kno people sometimes will try and seek justice.The you know quote Unquote Right Way and it doesn't do anything it doesn'tactually heal. Whatever hurt was caused, it's them working on that hurt andworking on that heeling through what that meant for them and that personbeing held accountable in ways that actually make the person who was harmedfeel good feel, like you know, I am able to recover and heal from this. Itdoesn't mean it won't be hard. It doesn't mean that it's going to be easy,but it's essentially you're showing the humanity in people all people, when Ithink of abolition versus reform is...

...just like trying to fix a broken system.I wouldn't even say it's broken. I think it's working the way it supposedto work. I thinkthere's nothing broken about O r citical criminal legal system.You know like, as we talked about the beginning of this episode like this state, is here to terrorize folks.The police are rooted in the Comondification of black livelihoods,and so I would even say that reform to an extent, if you look at it from anabolitionist Lens, it's just giving more credibility, Thi System oancomeditfrom asabolitionist lings. You understand that the roots that thewhole entire basis this system is to hurt people, it isast separate people,a D descripe, two different classes. It is to keep those that are poorer, thatare black, that are brown that are indigenous to make them less Tan thanthe white elites to protect. Like you said property rather than to protectthe humanity within our communities. I think you also brought up somethingimportant m when you were sort of drawing the line between reform andovolition, and how reform is tinkering around the edge is not really wantingto at all actually solve the root causes of these issues. Then abolitionis coming out of withoutradical love, but what is radical up? 'CAUSE? I thinkthat's hard to identify, because we've been taught to separate one another tocreate a hierarchy of good doers in wrongdoers when you life fromabolitionist end, there is no wrongdoers or good doers. You are youere, looking like humanity, you were looking at. How can individuals supportone another? How canncrate systems that are rooted in that radical love? Howcan we reimagine a society which people have been doing for hundreds andhundreds and hundreds of years? Black radicals, especially indigenous spokes,really m these peoples, these thinkers, these thought leaders, it's notanything new reimagining, this radical love, it's not new, it's just something!We have to root ourselves in to shrip back that commodification, that we haveinternalized that capitalism, that wehave internalized- and I really amgrateful whenever we get to have conversation whenever theseconversations are brought up. Whenever we ourselves bring up theseconversations ecause we get to talk about something that is better. Somaybe we should talk about what is better, what comes afterwards? We'vetalked vaguely about it, but like Adison, what? What are some structures that you wouldlike to see? whate are some changes that you think would be an abolitionistapproach to things. You know that's actually like a really good questionand the best way I can describe it for me, how I think it would look to to seethese structures that you know really promote humanity, ind healing andaccountability. I think t would be to look at the way the relationships inthe community kind of work. I think, building that community aspect is superimportant 'cause. If you didn't go in a lot of ways: Indigenous folks, Blackand Brown folks community is kind of always been at a heart right, a lot ofwork that I see people do, whether it's M and talking about history talkingabout abolition, just whatever the work they do and it's around like hommunityand understanding it. How it looks, it's always talking about how peopletake care of each other, and I think that that's a really important peacewhen we're thinking of these different systems. Right now, it's notnecessarily good to think of the community right. It can be as simple asan issue as universal healthcare right. It is really at the basics just makingsure everyone can have health care, no matter what the cost is, and you know, of course, there aresystems where you know that work that doesn't, but when people are like, Idon't want to pay for somebody else's health care. That just shows that it's not about us.It's about me and getting my needs met. Thinking of these systems, you want tothink of. You know what works for the Community Whit. Does the community need?How are we insuring? That healing is...

...happening, our insuring? Thatcountability is happening? What does rehabilitation look like afteraccountability and not thinking of well? What rights do you deserve, because youdid something wrong 'cause when you define someone by their past? What change doyou expect to happen when anything, they do anything? They say whateverchanges they try to make in their life, they're always going to have a mistake,F with them forever, and I think when you do that that again, dehumonizessomeone and that doesn't really recognize that they are a person, makesmistakes, and I think that that's something important to think about isjust that, like you know, we're all people, we all make mistakes and whenyou're having these conversations 'cause for me, I don't work as much inpolicy when it comes to abolition, but thinking of it on the community level,it's hard to want to try and reimagine a system where, in order to for me toreimagine it and work towards that reimagine system, there has to be a lotof community accountability and love that it's there t it it's there, but itneeds to be like a collective thought. I fee like for me to be able to truly see the tee systems change and just like gotten rid of for ones thatreally do promote those other pieces. I talked about before absolutely we'llneed a mass multigenerational, molduratial multiethnic internationalmovement to take down the prison industrial, complex 'cause, it's it'sso ingrained in our economic system in every single system that we hold Um.That is in place today to sort of get back to the question that I had posedabout what comes afterwards. You know I realy appreciate, like you not onlytalked about okay, like it's things like universe, AF, healthcare of course,but it is about that collective thought of the community. Having that deepconversation about what do we need? But I also think there's another point,because I come from a lonecome community, and I know that you knowthat perspective as well, but I think about it's not only violencet like in apersonal violence between one group and another within our community or oneindividual and another individual. It's about how state has perpetuated Ahotand I'm not just talking about like through policing itself or throughprison, because, as we both know like odolution is, is much much much largerthan that deeper than that. But I really think of Ho t how the State hasperpetuated things like homelessness, like the commodification of health ecommodication, of something like water, the fact that it can be privatized thatthe state charges as something for is absolutely baffling to me, and I think,abolishon tackles those things. I think it breaks down this narrative that wehave through capitalism of the owner of land or the owner of water, the ownerof basically, if you're can afford to liveor not whether be Theu'r housing practices through healthcare practices.So I think of we're looking at Preson a police abolition and in the context ofthe Gurments pruencin movement, to tackle gun balance at its core. We haveto start tackling some of those economic issues. We have to stopcharging people for things like healp care, even beginning that conversationof like what does the right to housing, look like because I believe in thatright to Houshim. But I I don't have the policy solution specificallyworking within this capitalist framework. Yeah Yeu know with abolitionlike we can't have capitalism, because, as I'vementioned nine million times now, it's the commodification of human light inHuven mihtblehood. We have to tear down systems and rebuild ones like on top ofit from those crumblings with that community need, like you, said, of, ofuniversal healthcare systems, of communal ownership, of land, communalownership, op housing, product communal worker, owned collective businesses m.So individuals don't go homeless, individuals, don't live in poverty.That is abolition work. I think that connects to gun balance, because atleast I know my experience. A lot of...

...the violence in my community comes fromthose economic harttrips and I could think about how many like instances ofgunbaance in my community could have been prevented if individuals didn'thave to resort to a typical means to violent means to gain some sort ofwealth within the community to gain some sort of income, and I think thatconnects deeply Um y own YEAA. When you were talking, I was thinking aboutspecifically e jstiggered, a thought when you said the you know:Comodification privatization of water. When we're thinking of abolition, Ithink there are small ways in policy that people can get to that Um. It's hard. I think, like this system ishard to work in and try to work through for sure, and even though voting can bevery powerful, it can also be inaccessible. There's also evidenctthat people have been suppressed by voting. So it's not necessarily, youknow the end all beall to getting work done, but especially thinking of Ducimnalization efforts, um an we're thinking of the decriminalization ofsex work, O people doing drugs or those who you know, consume drugs, there'sjust so many things like even homelessness can be illegal. It can bethere's just so many things that when we're talking about marginalizedindividuals and when it comes to policy, there are usually the ones that arenegatively impact. Almost all the things that this system is supposed tohave people be or do it does an those items or those things usually tend tobe illegal right, even if you think about like the legalization ofmarijuana right, there are millions of black and brown individuals who are inprison right now. For marijuana offenses, meanwhile, there are whitefolks who are making a business out of selling weed right now who are makingso much money like they're, pretty comfortably living. Meanwhile, whenblack and Brown individuals were doing those things, it was deemed as a badthing, but they were just trying to get food on the table O trying to get thirdKades to school or just trying to pay the bills like the reasonings were forsurvival, because it's not like jobs are going to be hiring black and Brownfolks, because these education systems are inaccessible literally, all ofthese systems of oppression are so interconnected and they end upbenefiting each other. If you think about it, racism, capitalism, White,suprermacy, homophobia and just like the paychack is like all of thesedifferent things. What they end up doing is they just benefit each otherin order to get a profit for for white folks, essentially, because if youthink about it, a lot of the DRIISS for money and for power and that money andpower people are willing to put black of Brown bodies on the line in order todo that, whatever that looks like whether it'sSlavey, whether it's prisons- it's just it's always the black and Brown folksdoin the work for free, not life, folks, are able to benefit from absolutely. Ithink you penpointed some specific policies, tnot progressives thatleftest. The abolitionist should be supporting really because it starts tobreak down the police state, the prisons that we have within the UnitedStates. It makes a noise around the world really because, sadly, for veryawful reason, Tus is looked upon as highly which I do not agree withwhatsoever. Quote me on it. I know this is probably ite me a nast some day, butI don'twanere I'm dedicated to abolishnist to work like you. Youpinpointed these policies that could lead to massive change like thedecriminlization of soxwork in drug use. On ending cash pal thinking about waysin which we can tackle the housing crisis in America, so individuals don'thave to pay. Thousands and thousands of dollars to live housing is a necessity.Safety shelter is a necessity. We should not have e system that isprofiting off of necessities, but that we do like you, Saidahi think it's UmEspecializ we're thinking of 'cause...

...prison and police abolition. It's it'sa pretty indepth and complex topic, because Thereis, just you have tounderstand the different systems of oppression, how they kind of worktogether, because to me the way that I've viewgun violence, I usually viewit as a symptom of all of these systems and a lot of the work that we're doinglike these decriminalization efforts or trying to work in policy is to reallyjust break down police and power of prisons. As we see them today, just think it'sreally important when doing abolition work, to understand the differentcomplexities of it and then bringing that work intothe context of GVD. It's just like s really understanding what it means. TwoD GVP work, while thinking of these systems 'cause, when you take thatraining and really bring that Lens of you know, how do we get rid of thissemptom M, which is how I see gun violence, it's one, a symptom, but alsoit's been a tool of power, so it's Kindo toofold. So how do you take thissymptom? What are the ways to get rid of this symptom and whet are the waysto change that symptom power dying theamic for those who have been able touse it absolutely and to sort of hone it back in, because I I think Youe donea great job of like hoaning it back into the DVP space instead of justtalking about these very large ideas to sort of hone it back in for thelisteners, I want to bring it back to my own personal story because, like Ithink getting to the point where I thought that my uncle's murderers, Idon't think they should be in prison. I think that was a big turning point forme because I starte a question. Well, why did they have to do that? In thefirst place, well, my uncle Um and the individuals that had shohn killed him.They were both forced into a system where they had two sell drugs to makesome sort of income, because their dajohbs didn't provide enough, and Iasked myself: Okay in order to solve dunviolence- and Iknow it comes with Um low sociooconomic status. You know like having up forlike tertermolow status as a lowincomperpersonyeah. I I fem thatvery weird, but I think words are ar are very hard for it, like I think,dunons provention organizrs really need to understand about these rout causes,and that's where a name comes from from this episode. Really I'm from this ideaof this episode that my uncle to me, I don't think he would have been shot andkilled if he was making enough money at I stayjob at hows collective ownershipover the means of production. If he had the capability to say, I need this xamount of money to survive. I want to live in a system where housing isAright, where healthcare is the right. Ere. Education is aright for everysingle person and there's no differences in that level that nomatter if you're black Brown, if you're worker, if you're non working, youstill have access to every single system, because you are human. Igenuinely do not believe that these prisons, the police itself, the systemsthese politicians- I don't think they understand that when we tackle the routcauses- or maybe they do understand- they just don't give a Fox and honestly,that's probably more likely. But I guess I want more GDP people tounderstand more gunmoun ermession organizers to understand that when wetackle these roote cosets, the threat of gun violence will go down so muchout of the depths of my heart to every gunmouun's, preventional organizer.Listening to this, I need you to understand that thes struggle, Horpolice in prison abolition is connected greatly to the struggle to end gunviolence. So please, please, please educate yourself whether it be throughgreat resources like critical resistance like goodkids, mad city,youth, over guns, Um DCRIMDC, so many amazing organizations there'sso many resources at yourself so connect your local work. Have theseconversations knock on doors? Of course, when poet is a little bitbut, havethese conversations and build that collective movement of Working PeopleBuild that movement within your society to Democratize, every single angle andsiple dut collective trust to really break down a power of the sate in t apower of violence by the city yeah. I realize we talked a lot of big concepts.H. We we've talked about a few. You...

...know tangeible pieces, because I think I don't. I don't really think Umtalking about these boter systems. Is it's like big idea, because they are wekind o interact with them on a day to day basis, but like bringing it um evenmore into that conversation around TV, P, organizing. I think you can see thisnow with work that blakewise matter hasbeen doing and just historically when we think of popice in gun violence,they are one of the F larger perpetuators of Gun, violence. UNHER.If you look at like people to people, it's kind of astonishing, how often forthis system to be quote unquote, protecting US people are hurt andkilled by it. I think that for me, what's been very interesting, anorganizing t within GBP in Abolitionos ONS. It's that you know you can'treally talk about gun, violent, proventian work without talking aboutpolice in prisons, because they end up just profetuating gun violence in somesort of way. So I think that when we're thinking of police and prisons Um, it'sunderstanding that the reason why we need to talk about with n TV kwork isthat they are a system that perpetuates gun violence and when we don't admitthat M, we will never be able to solve gun bilance, because when you're notreally analyzing the different systems that perpetuate violence, then you'renever going to really understand. You know how to solve gun violence, becauseyou're ignoring one of the systems that are working to continue to perpetuateGu mylise. Absolutely- And I think I think you hinted at a point. I think weneed to call it outcleainly and I think Um Andrea. I do yeah, I love Andrei Um.She said something at the summit and I think a would ma might have as wellBhow gunvilence prevention, organizers in large gun, violence, prevention organizations, I' noconame any namesand honestly, myselfsolt too. I have to be honest, like we perpatuated a policestate, Genmans, Permunchon, organizers, agon, Mons Prevention, movement hasperpetuated, police state and- and that's not right, I think about so manyyouth, where we've been taken advantage of by these larger organizations toFihe her bills, that yes, stop Um guns from getting in the hands ofindividuals that could cause harm, but it also gives more power in money tothe police state. I think of effort specifically around. Why am I blinking?There was a specific policy that I think needs to be talked about plainand simple exceme as protection orders. It sounds very great and it does do adecent job of the tackling the issue of gun bouancl. Would you give more powerto the sate when you give more power to the police, to the PRESON industrialcomplex? You are allowing for another perpetuator of violence O to really beupheld, and I think gunbonts, promention, organizs and especiallyyoung gunmonth provention organizes we need to start questioning largerorganizations when they ask is to lobby for a piece of legislation and extremes,protection orderis only one example: there is literally hundreds nearlyevery single gun policy we have in the book, understandably, because we'reworking within this, this framework of capitalism of the person dindustrialcomplex of the military industrial, complex of the commeication of humanlife, a lot of the policies related to M gunmounts prevention, give more moneyand give more power to the policeen. I think, as organizers, we have to startquestioning organizations that are supporting these policies. I think it'salso worth when we're thinking of Um policies I just when you're engaging Mor being or you're just like Nede den violence, organizing, it's alwaysimportant to do research, I think, and not just like research like twilling,something or watching. U Tvsyou know asking people who do the word, maybewatching a really boring. You know I don't know what they're called likewhenever they talk about bills and stuff 'cause brain is blanking but like being able to like Kindo, tryand understand these things as best as possible, and you know not being afraidto ask questions, because I think,...

...especially with abolitionist work,there's a connotation that comes with it, and sometimes it's working throughthose connentations of abolitionist work is usually seen as u a bad thingor it's. You know demonized, but it's really just about taking systems thathave never been for the well being of marginalize oks and creating a systemthat promotes the rehabilitation and accountability and healing ofmarginlize individuals in a very equitable way. And I think that youknow, as we continue to do the work that we're doing it's going to bereally important, to continue that education, peace and be willing toeducate others who may not be as well versed as we are, and I like definitelyemplore folks who have that ability who have that on capacity to be educatingtheir community members. If you have access to resources that can help wrigtdown what this work means and what it looks like being able to give those tofolks and share those resourrces Um, because the more we educate each otherabout what's going on and educate each other in ways that are accessible, themore people we can get to really help, not just in a political way and in apolicy specifically B in a community way like bringing those two piezcestogether, amcre, just an actually just an equitable society. That really doesensure that you know we're not working for profit but we're working for thesake of just working for each other. You know absot and working for acommunity. You brought up the point of like giving resources and educatingyourself, and I want two pinpoint four listeners, one of V best organizations.If that is a thing one of the best like movement based groups, that I've seencome out with some pretty easy to read and tangible, very easy to read.Understanding resources is critical resistance. If you go to criticalresistance, Stop Org! You Click on resources. There is abolitionist tools,abolishfrom jailing, abolishing police, addressing harm accountability andhealing all of these things. There's videos, there's M graphics. It'sprobably one of the been one of the best organizations that has helpedEducatei me within the last year. Really, so please, please, please, ifyou're listening, if you're Goin, TA, mols, Frenc and organizer, if you'rejust a listener, if your friend a family member, please go to thatwebsite and they break down differences between abolition, I'm in reform andwhat comes afterwards and it's absolutely beautiful, so Plese, please,please Tet los o bunch of different organizations, but I highly recommendthatot. So I think you know to Kinda like end on a really good note,or at least in this a really large conversation around this concept in thesystems kind of bringing a bat to how they kindof work with US individually. What would you say has been some skills orways in which you internally worked on radicalizing yourself and being able to kind of dismantle these systems in yourown day to day life and be able to Rieally? Imagine U New Systems Yeah! I I thank you for asking thatquestion because I I think it's something we need to think about bothas a community and individually. But when I really started to question, Istarted to ask them why. Why should there be a difference between someonewho is Lac? Who is white? Why should someone have the right to housing ifthey have wealth, while there are thousands and thousands who arehomeless? Why do I want to live in a world where I have friends and family members andmyself included that don't know if we're going to be able to pay our rentfamily members that go Hungary myself, who in high school would open up afridge, open up a fucking, um cupboard and would see a box of trisqetzs and afew cans of like miscellaneous beans? Like that? That's not what I should beopening myshelvs, where I should be opening my shelves to fresh bread, thefresh produce and that's the type of...

...world that I imagined with evolitionand literally, is about to bring me to tears. But that's what it's possiblewhen we work for abolition that is possible when we try to build a worldthat is just that is equitable, like you said atising and I think asprevention organizer and is someone whos tried to tip away at the PresonIndustrial Complex? I just I've asked myself why. Why am I currently livingin a world that is perpetuating harm against spokes? Also, too, I think it'simportant to talk about how we actively engage in policing at an individuallevel too, because I think that's part of breaking down the prison industrialcomplex asking ourselves. Why are we judging someone for the way that theylook? Why are we FA, shaming someone? Why are we skinny, shaming someone? Whyare we judging someone for their hair, um ortheir teeth, or if they have a house or not? So, as I goo formucian organizer,I hope, if you're lessenaten, to start asking yourself as wise and to startconsciously making the efforts to break down those internalized systems, um ofclasses and racism, and so many others about you, though, how do you thinkyou've radicalized yourself internally and externally, raking down the systems Um? I think for me like going back soearlyer talking about love and what that looks like. I have faced a lot of trauma perpetuated by others and a lotof harm perpetuated by others and when I think of abolition work, I alwayslike to think of the way that I think of my like my process and how I reallygot here. I think about all the hurt that like has been caused to me andthat I've experienced him my life. That's resulted in h the drama that I have experience,Um being able to think about what would a world look like to heal from that,because I think what ends up happening, especially when we m talk aboutabolition, it's well. What do we do when someonehurts US and sometime? The answer is, you know you do what you need to healfrom that and when that process includes another person because of theharm they cause. It's looking like. What can I? What do I need to heal fromthis? That won't cause more harm 'cause? I think that to me prisens an palicious,it's not about healing, and it's not about accountability, it's just aboutharming people and punishing people, and I think we need to think of thosethings differently as a c on the community level, because when we thinkof that on a community level, it makes plushing for those policies a lot moreunderstandable, tamakes understanding these sysms a lot more contextual,because if we're living in the world that doesn't prioritize everyone and doesn't love everyone and caresabout everyone, I don't think that that's a world I could wilfully live inand continue to be a part of because it's it's hard to it's hard to do it'svery hard to do. But it's worth doing if I care about the humanity of others and care about the way in which youknow people, I loven'n care about, navigate the world as well as myselfand people. I don't know Um just knowing that it extends to more thanjust my circle of people, but any and everyone because everyin anyone is ahuman being. I think they deserve those same rights and those s that same love.That I would extend to a family member or a friend or someone. I just careddeeply about absolutely and thank you for, likebeing honest throughout this conversation, because I know we'vetalked about it probably nine million times and like so as like everyone andnot my generation, specifically the portof directors and our committees. So thank you for always engaging thisspace Y. I had of Wan O. ask you. It is sort of end on a positive on a hopefulon a beautiful note M. I don't ask you...

M in one word: could you please describea world free from policing imprisons one word onword for me I would have tosay: I'd have to say love yeah, for a lot of the reasons I said, I'd have to say: Love Aasten, I'm literally going to startcrying. It just makes me feel this immenseamount of community and of hope, because there 's so manyindividuals that just want a world with Lovein it, no matter where you come from people atthe end of the day. We just want community in love, and that is the world. The abolishnestsare trying to build and we are trying to build that. Not My generation istrying to build a youthover guns, Coul Ge, Tmmin city individuals, abolitionists that did work hundredsand hundred years ago. They were trying to build out and were continuing thatstruggle. So thank you, Addison or being community with me for having thisopen dialogue. I genuinely I do love you because I Icare about you. I really really do Addison and we are going to change theWorld Iam, the millions of other people out there who suport this call yeah. Ithink we and when I say we I mean anyone and everyone engaging in thework and whatever way it looks like are going to be able to create this worldthat we want to live in for future generations, and I wanttothink you also for being in community Um. You know the more the Marri er Ireally did enjoy this conversation. I hope that people really understand theconnections between police and prison, abolition and gun balance, proventionwork, and I'm thankful that not my generation is one of many many manymany organizations. Even more than we listed here and individuals that arehaving this conversation, so I appreciate having this space in beingable to do that as well. Thank you for listening to episode andnine of Rut causes and not my generation Podcas, where we discussedprison and police abolition in the fights and gun violence. Please join USnext Tuesday for an episode on the connection between Climate Justice andgunbines prevention in solidarity, Elija, nickols and Addison Moore.

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